that does it for me today. thank you for watching "a.m. joy" with joy reid starts right now. i am falsely accused of making false statements during my testimony to the house intelligence committee that is incorrect. any error i made in my testimony would be both immaterial and without intent as i have said previously, there is no circumstance whatsoever

under which i will bear false witness against the president, nor will i make up lies to ease the pressure on myself i look forward to being fully and completely vindicated. >> good morning and welcome to "a.m. joy. well, it's kind of hard to hear that first part over those "lock him up" chants, but this is the spectacle that the presidency of the united states has been reduced to, a defiant roger stone, just hours after the predawn raid of his florida home, almost seeming to enjoy the circus as he becomes the sixth trump official or adviser to be indicted or found guilty of crimes in the mueller investigation. stone was charged with obstruction, making false statements, and witness tampering for allegedly lying to congress about his contacts with wikileaks as they released stolen democratic e-mails during the campaign now, it's unclear exactly how long roger stone could face imprisonment if convicted, especially if mueller is holding back charges as a way to get him

to spill some tea on his buddy, donald trump joining me now is sam nunberg, a former trump campaign adviser who last march testified before mueller's grand jury after saying that he would defy his subpoena, and then very wisely, i would say, sam, did not. so, i want to get your initial impressions of just the entire thing that happened yesterday, the takedown of roger stone and his sort of presentation of himself after his initial hearing. >> well, i think roger -- everybody, roger's allies, outside people expected he was going to be indicted what we didn't know, or anybody knew, is what it would be. and i was very surprised that this is, not to belittle the charges, completely processed. they did not put him as part of a conspiracy to defraud the united states. >> right. >> perhaps they're holding on to that for some reason with that said, this is something that roger loves, a fight like this. whether you like roger or not,

this is something, what roger is basically built for. as long as he is able to put up a legal defense, he will have witness lists like you will not believe. he will have theatrics going on outside. and he will try to make a spectacle, because to him, it's about convincing a jury. all he needs is one juror. >> yeah. >> and so, we'll find out. in terms of him flipping, which i know you would want to get to, i think that that's dependent on a couple issues. the first is he is extremely loyal to the president this was one of the major problems we had together during the 2016 campaign. but it would also depend, i think, on the way the president's legal team and the white house talks about him. >> yeah. do you think he's expecting a pardon >> it's a good question. i can't speak for him. i've never discussed this with him. let me be very, very careful when i answer this but i think in the back of a lot of these people's minds, they are expecting pardon >> let's talk about the actual substance of charges i went through and read the indictment yesterday

and let's just go through a couple of things that were alleged. one of them was this question of how roger stone was making all of these predictions, some of them on twitter, about whose time in the barrel was going to be next, about what was coming and whether or not he was interacting with the trump campaign during it here's one element of the indictment on or about september 18, 2016, stone e-mailed person two, who is now known and i think has been confirmed by him to be randy credico, an article with allegations against then candidate clinton related to her service as secretary of state. stone stated, "please ask the head of organization one," which would be wikileaks, "for any state or hrc e-mail from august 10 to august 30, particularly on august 20, 2011, that mentioned subject of the article or confirm this narrative." it sounds as if stone was intending to use wikileaks as essentially a place to mine opposition research on hillary clinton. would that be accurate >> yes look, i think roger would have used wikileaks

i think roger would have even gone into the embassy and met with julian assange, had he been invited, but he didn't and in terms of this, it's that he made himself -- this has been my issue and this is one of the reasons why it was very difficult for me to go into a grand jury, somebody who's worked for me, is because he made himself such a target during this process, which he didn't have to do for a bunch of reasons that they then started looking into this. and now when you're looking into person two, person one, we're talking about randy credico and jerome corsi -- >> right, author of "the birther conspiracy," with whom he's now fighting speaking of jerome corsi, on or about august 22nd, 2016, person one, who is corsi, e-mailed stone. the embassy plans two more dumps, first when he was in europe, second in october, impact plan to be very damaging. would not hurt to start suggesting hrc is old, her memory bad and has had a stroke.

and now let's start looking at what actually happened you had info wars and the right started, you know, ginning up these allegations that hillary clinton was mentally feeble, physically feeble. and then about a month later, she caught a cold and the mainstream media picks it up there's a "washington post" headline about clinton's health being a major issue. so, these things were actually implemented. a, are you surprised that jerome corsi and stroej and randy credico were doing this by e-mail, creating an e-mail paper trail essentially of their working with wikileaks did they not think it was illegal to use hacked material. >> as roger said to me and as i've testified, and this is basically public, is when i would tell roger, i would say i highly suggest you not do this for a bunch of reasons, make yourself -- >> you suggested he not do this. >> i suggested that, one, as he was doing it and doing these tweets and things, that you're making yourself a target one, it looked like hillary clinton was going to win and she wasn't going to be happy with you. and number two, the fbi under

hillary clinton, especially after what they did during the election, is going to have to look into him. and number three, and this goes back to the pardon, what would donald trump do for him? >> right. >> would donald trump be appreciative because trust me, he wasn't. he did not treat roger -- well, he did not give roger inauguration tickets >> roger stone didn't have inauguration tickets >> well, he did end up getting them, but not directly, i don't believe, through other intermediaries. >> so you don't think trump even appreciated appreciated? >> i don't think he appreciated roger or me, no. >> do you think the officials having the back-and-forth conversations -- i know at one point there are e-mails "the new york times" found where steve bannon is e-mailing back and forth with someone who's telling him you need to get in touch with roger stone, you need to get in touch with these guys. >> reporter matt boyle, right. that's all public. that's in the back end. >> yeah. >> on the top, what you're talking about is in that july time frame, i don't know specifically who it is

>> trump. >> could it be donald trump who instructed them in that later paragraph? it could be, but i don't know. but yes, it could be. >> there is a paragraph in the indictment that says they were instructed by a senior campaign official to go back to -- >> no, it says a senior campaign -- not to correct -- it's like the senior campaign official was instructed to go back -- >> right, right. >> and they made sure to not -- and that's at the same paragraph where they're extremely particular in writing senior campaign official contacted, senior cam -- it could be. >> who else would roger stone have had a personal relationship with besides donald trump himself on that campaign >> well, in that time frame, things were a lot different. and going through -- just to understand, once paul manafort got in to the campaign, first under the auspices that he was going to help trump during the campaign, and then basically it looked as if roger was going to -- roger and i were going to get what we wanted -- >> right. >> from one point, push cory eyw

lewandowski out, roger was not affiliated with the campaign because he doesn't have to answer to trump. >> right. >> but i would assume, and i don't know this -- they're talking about manafort and gates. >> okay, because those would be the people he would know. >> in that july time -- look, i was asked, and others have been asked, how often did donald trump talk to roger stone? how often do you know did roger stone talk to paul manafort and rick gates. >> yeah. >> i am sure they're in their proffer sessions, both of them, they were asked extensively about this michael caputo has said during his voluntary interview they asked him about a certain meeting between them so look, i think that they're talking about either rick gates and manafort there. >> okay. >> at the very least. >> and roger stone is who recommended that donald trump hire manafort in the first place because they used to be business partners, is that correct? >> and tom barrack >> tom barrack also recommended that manafort be -- >> tom barrack recommended it to the kids

but roger -- but then donald trump called roger when he was about to make the move because it was essentially pushing cory to the side. >> right. >> said explain to me what's going on with this convention, could i really lose the delegates at that point? now remember, that's a point where donald trump even won the state of louisiana in the primary but got less delegates than ted cruz. >> so they're worried about delegates. was there any indication in your mind that one of the reasons that the campaign wanted paul manafort was his experience, his very particular experience in dirty campaign tricks, to be blunt? because that's what roger stone self-identifies himself as being expert in. did the trump campaign want manafort because of his history of doing dirty tricks in places like ukraine in elections? >> no, i don't believe so. i believe they wanted -- >> just for delegates? >> for the convention. he came in there as the convention manager he came in there as the convention manager trump was losing at that time delegates to cruz, even though he had won more states. >> right. >> he was getting destroyed in caucus states, something like

8-1 in some states even, and they needed delegates. and lewandowski was completely unprepared for a delegate fight. i don't believe -- i don't know, but i could tell you that -- i can tell you that ukraine wasn't the issue. it was losing your nomination at the skroension. >> but ukraine -- okay, quickly, there's also a lot of witness intimidation that's spelled out in the indictment, and i'll give you one of them. on multiple occasions, including on or about december 1, 2017, stone told person two, randy credico should do a frank tan gellie before the house select committee on intelligence to avoid contradicting the testimony. that is a character in "the godfather part 2" which stone and person two discussed, who testifies before a congressional committee and claims not to know critical information he knows. this kind of bullying, threatening the guy's dog, to take his dog, the sort of moblike attitude, did roger stone ever treat you that way

when he knew that you were going to go and testify? is. >> no, he did not. >> he never asked you to lie >> absolutely not. he did not and the other thing is, he got upset, i believe, because i said publicly and through private that i'm no longer going to speak to him after being in the grand jury. >> yep. >> to protect both of us, but frankly, more to protect him than me because i wasn't going to obstruct justice. >> yeah. >> and ironically, if i'm on a panel authority on wednesday, this comes out on a friday and i'm telling michael caputo, he's being stupid, he's witness tampering and he's not donald trump. he's not the president of the united states who's going to get indicted by the justice department now, that may be in the president's articles of impeachment by congress, but no, you can't get away with this now, had they called me in, for instance, for things like we discussed, i would have laughed it all off and i did it's roger with randy, i don't know how -- >> do you know him well? >> no, but do i know him, yes. i've known him throughout the years. >> and he did advise, at least

according to this indictment, he tried to tell roger stone, you probably should change your testimony and not lie, and stone did it anyway. they wanted him to lie. >> and that's what's very strange to me here because at the end of the day, the issue is, why, according to this -- we'll see roger's defense -- but according to the justice department, why would roger not say i was talking to jerome corsi? >> that's a good question. we'll talk about that on the other side of the break. coming up, our russiagate panel will join the convsaertion, and that is right -- look at them there. looking fabulous right after this quick break always a catch. like somehow you wind up getting less. but now that i book at hilton.com, and i get all these great perks. i got to select my room from the floor plan... very nice... i know, i'm good at picking stuff. free wi-fi... laptop by the pool is a bold choice... and the price match guarantee. how do you know all of this? are you like some magical hilton fairy? it's just here on the hilton app. just available to the public, so... book at hilton.com and get the hilton price match guarantee. if you find a lower rate, we match it and give you

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>> if you're convicted, do you think the president will pardon you? >> pardon me >> if you're convicted, do you think the president would pardon you? >> the only person i have advocated a pardon for is marcus garvey >> how strong is your allegiance to president trump >> i am one of his oldest friends. i am a fervent supporter of the president. >> yes, roger, okay. marcus garvey. yep, we get it back with me, sam nunberg. mia wiley, jill wine banks, msnbc contributor and former assistant watergate special prosecutor,barbara mcquade, msnbc contributor and former u.s. attorney, paul butler, msnbc legal analyst and former federal prosecutor and michael nance, author of "the plot." thank you for being with me, mega panel

we have to talk about the threat to randy credico's dog in the indictment, stone put in an e-mail to randy credico -- "you are a rat, a stoolie, you backstab your friends. run your mouth, my lawyers are dying, rib you to shreds." stone also said he would "take that dog away from you," referring to credico's dog on or about the same day, he said to person two, "i am so ready. let's get it on. prepare to die." what person puts that in writing and isn't worried he'll ever be caught >> i think if the full e-mail -- i think randy may have released the full e-mail to marvin jones and i was mentioned in that e-mail, actually, too. >> yeah. >> you'd have to ask roger that. what i would say is it's not good, especially when randy's going to bring his dog and brought his dog to the grand jury. >> right, to court. >> so, imagine the grand jury is looking and somebody presents this e-mail and randy's sitting there with his dog saying were you intimidated? >> you had an exchange with

randy credico about this. >> yeah. randy credico and i were both on ari melber's show together at some point in time after the threats, but he was talking about the fact that he had been threatened and offset before the show began, he was visibly shaken he kept talking about it over and over, about the threats and intimidation, talked about his dog. he took that very seriously. i know it may sound funny to >> right. >> it was not funny to him at all, you know. and it is, if you think about mob tactics where people kill animals and leave them on your doorstep, it is not funny. and it was clear that it was not funny to him and he took it very seriously and he was visibly shaken. >> and there he is, randy credico you see on the screen bringing his dog in. i have to say, it sounds like mafia tactics, the sort of language in it is very mob sounding, right? >> well, i think that's what roger was trying to do. >> that's what he was going for?

>> i don't think he thinks he's mob, i think it's schticky. >> does donald trump operate that way as well michael cohen is now afraid because of veiled threats to his father is this the way they operated when you were dealing with roger stone and donald trump >> well, with roger stone, i think he's always citing "godfather." he cited this to me over the years. i'm not going to say it's appropriate to send that to randy. in terms ofif trump -- i don't think donald trump is mafioso, but i think he looked at himself more as george steinbrennerish. >> or richard nixon. >> exactly. >> well, in terms of just like wanting to hurt employees, not literally, but play employees against each other, you know, always get people off, leave them off kilter, things like that. >> i'm sorry, jill. >> i was just going to say, i think that it's really more mob sounding and who would have ever thought that my organized crime prosecution days are as relevant as my watergate days in talking about this case, because that's how they talk.

>> yeah. >> and you know, it isn't funny to threaten an animal. people are very -- i mean, i'm a dog lover, so i took that as a very serious part of this indictment. >> does this feel to you like an organized crime sort of, i don't know, the way that robert mueller is going about it, is this the way an organized crime prosecution would proceed? >> well, either that -- it's the same as watergate, too i mean, you start and you start building up and you surround the main character that you're trying to get at >> right. >> so, it's a normal prosecution, whether it's -- but i would say rico certainly sounds like something -- racketeering, influence, corrupt organization -- it certainly sounds like a law that could be applied to this situation, for sure. >> yeah, absolutely. >> and i was just going to say, on the intimidation, we do know that stormy daniels has also claimedthat she was really threatened in terms of her daughter in this context of whether or not she would come forward with her story so, it's not new in terms of the

allegations. >> absolutely. well, i want to bring the rest of the panel in. if anyone has questions for sam, feel free. he's going to stay with us and who's just jumping in there? >> yeah, this is paul. so, sam should know that this isn't new because after sam started talking to robert mueller, then roger stone went on instagram and called sam a rat and a snitch. >> right. >> i'm wondering, sam, did you take that as a threat? >> no, i did not but i told roger, it's not -- he shouldn't worry about me taking it as a threat, he should worry about the way he's talking to other people and randy credico certainly took it as a threat, and certainly his grand jury testimony, he said so. once again, i even had an argument with caputo on air about this i said, roger is not the president of the united states they may put that in articles of impeachment against the president, but they're not going to indict him on it. roger can get indicted on witness tampering. >> yeah. >> i didn't take any of his threats seriously because i know roger stone. >> and paul, just to stay with you for a second, were you surprised that -- and sam brought this up earlier -- were you surprised that among the charges against roger stone that

was not included was something like conspiracy against the united states, that kind of a charge because the substance of the indictment is directly about collusion with wikileaks >> i'm not surprised because this is act two, so i think act one was the indictment of the 12 russian intelligence officers for trying to throw the election to donald trump. act two now is the information that's important is how open and receptive the trump campaign organization was to receive the criminal matters from russia, stolen e-mails, and how roger stone lied to congress about the trump campaign's organizations, the close relationship or receptiveness. so, i think act three, joy, will be the american co-conspirators who we have reason to believe are people at the very highest level of the trump campaign. >> yeah. barbara mcquade i believe has a question barbara, go ahead.

>> you know, one of the things i'm curious about, sam, is do you know -- remember in july of 2016 when president trump made this promise that on monday you're going to hear some big dirt on hillary clinton, and then it didn't happen. do you know, number one, what he was talking about? and number two, why he didn't follow through >> i don't know, number one -- number one, i don't know it seems to me that in light of the timing with the trump tower moscow meeting, i am sure robert mueller does know. in terms of number two, i have heard from others that worked at the campaign at that time that their explanation is we were just disorganized and eventually we spoke about hillary clinton later in the week, but that's not something that -- i wasn't with the campaign then in fact, i think i was being sued at that point. >> right. >> so. >> yeah. >> let me get malcolm nance in here, because the wikileaks part of it, what you've heard from defenders of donald trump is that there's nothing wrong with it because they were just mining

research just like any other campaign would the problem, of course, is what wikileaks was doing and who they were partnering with feel free to comment, or if you have a question for sam, feel free as well. >> my comment is quite simple. it's that wikileaks has already been determined by u.s. intelligence, including donald trump's former director of cia, now secretary of state pompeo, to be a nonstate hostile intelligence agency. and further to what paul was saying a little bit ago, i think the next tier is not going to be the american co-conspirators i think it's going to be julian assange and the wikileaks organization so that they can now pressure all of the other people who had had communications with them by showing that they have a link with an actual now-indicted agency the way that they did with the russian personnel for the most part, you know, i find this all fascinating, because roger stone to me is just playing this character role where he thinks he is a gumba,

that haas a mafioso, and he is about to find out what a ton of bricks really, really feels like >> yeah, all right well, when we come back, i do want to talk about the wikileaks aspect of this as well ch more with sam and my panel when we come back.

roger's in a relationship with trump has been so interconnected that it's hard to define what's roger and what's donald whether it would be clearly a trump presidency, i think it's influenced by stone's philosophy roger's relationship with trump, they both see the world in a very similar way if trump is elected president, i think roger will see one more very significant impact he's had on world history. >> all right my panel is back with me as we discuss the indictment of longtime trump confidante roger stone. we're talking about the julian assange sort of factor in all of this and you had a question for sam. >> sam, you've said in the past many times that you've talked to roger stone 15 times a day. >> frequently, yes. >> and roger stone has said multiple times that he talked to trump regularly and constantly, you know and you've had this e-mail exchange with roger where it's

very clear in this period where he's trying to get e-mails, august 4th e-mail 2016, where he's saying, yes, hillary clinton's up by 15 points, but that won't last. >> mm-hmm. >> what knowledge did you have of how many conversations he was having directly with donald trump during this time >> i don't want to go specifically into it because of my grand jury testimony in the case for the united states, but i will say -- >> that in and of itself tells me something. >> but what i will say is that they did talk frequently, but it was less frequent towards the end of the campaign because of the way the campaign was operated manafort was no longer there and bannon and kellyanne and allies, lewandowski. but i believe they had some conversations in october, but that's up to roger -- >> in the first week of august were they having conversations >> i would think so. i would think so. >> would roger stone have been in a position to know, since he

was talking to donald trump, you know, and that senior levels of the campaign were advised at a certain point, there's been an attack on the democratic national committee, wikileaks has something to do with it -- >> well, assange -- >> if they were advised that, would they have known that >> i think assange went publicly in june and said he had these e-mails. what i will say is in my senate intel, as opposed to mueller, special counsel's office, senate intel was very, very -- they asked me numerous times about the clinton health issue, the clinton health issue all i would say is that, just so the audience understands, this was an issue in conservative spheres, conservative media, since as early as 2013 she had an issue with -- there was something that the bill de blasio -- >> but info wars and jerome corsi and company accelerated that directly after wikileaks dumped it. >> i would also tell you that roger and i had conversations

with then mr. trump in even mid-2014 about using her health. >> wow, interesting. >> so, just -- with that said, it doesn't mean that -- i'm just -- this is something that was going on ed klein of all people wrote about it so, this was something the clintons were well aware of during their campaign. >> i think sam may be making some news here if he's saying that around august 4th, this e-mail that roger stone was in contact with then candidate donald trump, because sam got another e-mail on august 4th from roger stone roger stone said, "i dined with julian assange last night. and now roger stone says that was just a joke. sam, did you take that as a joke >> i didn't remember that e-mail so, that e-mail was only presented to me in the grand jury, not during my voluntary. what i remembered is i had a conversation with roger. i had not spoken to him. and i said to him, so, where have you been? and it was a friday afternoon or so and roger said to me, oh, i met

with julian assange. as i've said, roger told me that they were going to release information about the clinton foundation my initial -- initially, i said to him, well, does he have any new information about benghazi and i would point to the fact that assange didn't release anything related to either one, so at that -- so, did i believe him initially when he told me? i didn't have any reason not to believe him, but when it didn't pan out and roger started making these public statements, i thought that this was just another, you know, dangerous but publicity-type sinking stunt by roger to stay relevant within the campaign and within the public sphere of the campaign. >> all right jill winebanks. >> sam, i would like to ask you because i think people would like to know, the evidence now gathered and presented in this indictment is so strong against roger. >> right. >> and he's still saying i'm not going to plead guilty, i am going to stand firm. when is someone going to get to

him to make him realize that he is going to be convicted the evidence is just too clear he can't get away with this. >> i think that roger and donald trump are very similar in this whole idea that people tell me that donald trump will fly off in a helicopter and wave good-bye sometime next summer of 2020 and everything will be okay and he'll take a deal. i don't believe it i think that they will fight things, both will fight towards the end. roger's the kind of person where he would think, i'll do a year in jail and i'll come out and give speeches. >> wow >> barbara mccade. >> you know, this is about -- >> the penalties for what he's done have up to 20 years. >> it won't be a year in jail. i think he has missed expectations barbara mcquade, jump in. >> as a follow-up to jill's question, has stone ever said anything to you about how he would anticipate if he was ever

charged, he could count on president trump to give him a pardon >> no. >> i noticed even yesterday when roger stone was giving his comments from the white house steps, when someone asked a question he couldn't hear, he said "pardon me," is that a shrouded, veiled request to the president? >> one of my issues with roger is, if roger has a loyalty and affinity, and i'll say to donald that i used to have and i don't have anymore after how i was treated. but they have a longer relationship and i think roger looks as himself now as if he's helping -- as if he's helping the president by fighting this charge and not being one of those people on the screen that may be indicted but has not been found guilty yet that's the way roger probably sees it, that he's part of helping save the trump presidency. >> but donald trump is a stunningly disloyal person is there -- >> you don't have to tell me >> you've said it yourself there's a great piece.

i recommend people go back to the jeffrey toobin article "the dirty trickster," where donald trump is insulting roger stone, where every quote by trump is an insult of roger stone. why in your view does roger stone exhibit such loyalty towards somebody who doesn't seem to be loyal to him? >> well, roger's given it back to trump in some ways. i don't want to go into the past. >> okay. >> i would just say that while roger may not publicly disparage trump, he has gotten back at him in the past. >> in the past. >> they have a very long, complicated relationship is what i would -- >> let me play the moment in july of 2016 this will look like a flashback to you, malcolm. this is when donald trump announced, essentially, his collusion with wikileaks to get dirt on hillary clinton. >> but it would be interesting to see i will tell you this, russia, if you're listening, i hope you're able to find the 30,000 e-mails

that are missing i think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press let's see if that happens. that will be next. >> malcolm, is there an innocent explanation for why a campaign that seemed to be in very close touch with wikileaks and mining information would make that kind of a statement if they were unaware of the origin of that hacked information >> absolutely not. and what you are seeing in that video, and we discussed that on that very day quite extensively, you're looking at conspiracy in plain sight. donald trump had already had conversations about that otherwise, it wouldn't have popped into his head and then within hours, russian intelligence was trying to hack hillary clinton's e-mails, which they successfully did not do, all right? they got around to other people, but not to her but this brings a question that i have for sam in the first week of october 2016, president obama made a nationally televised address

along with the director of national security and the director of national intelligence and had said to the nation that the united states was attacked and that the information that was stolen by russia was being used in a disinformation warfare campaign intended to impact the election. at any time did you or roger stone ever have pause to think, hey, wait a minute, we may be part of an operation which is being carried out by a foreign government like the president and the national intelligence community are asserting, or was it just your loyalty to donald trump at that time superseded any thought of defending the constitution >> malcolm, first off, i had nothing to do with it. i was sued in july they have e-mails. i did not say very nice things about donald trump up until around the day before, up until around the second debate or so i was fine with him winning the election, but i had -- one, i had nothing to do with it. i endorsed ted cruz.

i was sued number two, i told roger, one of the reasons i warned him about this was because he was making himself a target but number three, i would also just say, roger conspired against himself here, because he did not get what he wanted he may have -- he would have, i think, but he didn't. >> we're out of time, but i have to ask you this question, sam, and one of our viewers is asking this as well if you knew these to be bad people or disloyal people who you don't seem at this point to have much regard for, why did you spend so much time worrying with them? >> because that wasn't the way it was when i worked for trump from 2011 to mid-2015. this started for me when i made the decision to not be campaign manager because i wouldn't be a good campaign manager. it's not what i do i'm not an operations guy. >> what about stone? they were notorious for years. roger stone, why did you hang out with him >> roger, we were very close at that point roger and i -- i did a lot of work with roger, and i was

day-to-day handling, let's just say the trump account. i would look at him as the senior partner and i would be the day-to-day associate, something like that -- >> didn't see how bad it was at the time >> it isn't like the way it is now. but we didn't have the special counsel, so -- >> sam nunberg, thank you very much i appreciate you sitting through with all of this jill weinbanks, thank you very much. an epic fail for the deal maker in chief coming up i'll speak with somebody who may know all too well why trump couldn't deliver ♪ there goes our first big order. ♪ 44, 45, 46... how many of these did they order? ooh, that's hot. ♪ you know, we could sell these. nah. ♪ we don't bake. ♪ opportunity. what we deliver by delivering.

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coming up, donald trump dabbles in witness intimidation. we found out how jared kushner really got his security clearance. and we've got to talk about how trump shut down the government for 35 days only to wind up exactlwhy ere he started stay with us we'll be right back. janice, mom told me you bought a house. okay. [ buttons clicking ] [ camera shutter clicks ] so, now that you have a house, you can use homequote explorer. quiet. i'm blasting my quads. janice, look. i'm in a meeting. -janice, look. -[ chuckles ] -look, look. -i'm looking. it's easy. you just answer some simple questions online, and you get coverage options to choose from. you're ruining my workout. cycling is my passion. you're ruining my workout. take prilosec otc and take control of heartburn. so you don't have to stash antacids here.... here...

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i find it disturbing that the special counsel's office released a press release prior to informing my attorneys that i would be charged today >> friday was not a good day for donald trump not only was his longtime con ciglary, roger stone, arrested, but trump also suffered a massive and humiliating defeat at the hands of house speaker nancy pelosi, who backed him into a corner and got him to end his government shutdown and the misery that he'd inflicted on millions of americans without a penny for his vanity border wall so, after 24 hours like that, you might be left wondering, well, whatever happened to the art of the deal? tony schwartz is co-author of "trump: the art of the deal. all right, so, tony, i want to

go through a couple quotes from the book that you wrote. here's one that seems particularly relevant. "i never get too attached to one deal or one approach for starters, i keep a lot of balls in the air, because most deals fall out, no matter how h promising they seem at first this was under a section called maximize your options. why do you suppose donald trump didn't follow that advice when it came to the pretend wall roger stone made up? >> well, what we now know is that health a terrible negotiator and actually always has been if you go back to "the art of the deal" which was a title i came up with, it came into my head in a moment i've lived to regret. >> yeah. >> 30 years ago, it's a title that i came up with as a marketing message, not as an actual expression of reality if i was looking through the "art of the deal" this morning and realized most of the deals in the "art of the deal" were failed deals

there were three casinos that failed, there was this attempt to get rid of tenants on 100 central park south that failed, the united states football league that failed this man has been a failure for his entire career. he earned -- i'm sorry he didn't earn -- he inherited $400 million. >> right we're mixing your mic. >> i got it. >> thank you so much. >> he inherited $400 million and, you know, compared to almost any other way kite have been invested did nothing with it. >> yeah. i guess the thing is, it was such an effective presentation that americans by and large know donald trump because of that he got "the apprentice" because of that presentation of who people thought he was. before you wrote the book, did you have doubts about his acumen as a bigmusinessman or realize after the thing was a success, realize this was untrue.

>> i will tell you honestly i woke up this morning and i started thinking about this and i dissolved in tears because i -- the notion that i made this choice to do this still feels to me unbearable and the tears i think were almost tears of joy that the truth could finally come out that story i was referring to about 100 central park south i wrote that for "new york" magazine before i met him and it was about trump's utter and complete failure at trying to harass tenants out of a building i had an experience with him the cover picture was of him looking like a thug. he loved it and put it up on his wall i knew exactly who he was. that's why i have been in be absolution for a very long time. >> donald trump, this is you writing for donald trump, i play to people's fantasies.

people may not always think big themselves but they can get excited by those who do. a little hyperbole never hurts people want to believe something is the biggest and greatest. it's an innocent form of exaggeration and effective form of production. >> promotion. >> sorry, promotion. i think that's fundamentally true >> exactly. >> people want to think big and why donald trump as an idea for a lot of voters this will make our country big. when it comes to governing a country, making a promise like stringing a medieval wall acros the southern border that is unfeasible and somebody who is a builder should know it's unfeasible, his supporters are married to this idea, how do you break people of a big idea once even the person per vaing it understand it is not possible? could he tell them it is not possible >> you know, i don't think you can break the core of the base i watched ann coulter on bill

maher last night and she represents the base. this is a nightmare. i mean people who believe, you know, the most repugnant kind of ideas, so i don't think it's ability th about that i think it's about recognizing through this process what you can learn from it. one of the things that you can learn is that the people have power, so you watch the air flight controllers call in sick yesterday, end of shutdown this cannot ever happen again, joy, so long as a reasonable personal of those flight controllers or those fbi agents or those irs workers simply decide, we're sick and as soon as they say that america shuts down trump doesn't have to -- isn't going to go up against the democrats to try to keep the government -- to avoid closing down the government. >> yeah. >> or to make the government close down he's going to go up against the

people and he will lose. >> yeah. another thing i think we've learned is that donald trump doesn't do well against strong women who push back. i want to -- this is a short sound bite bit speaker nancy pelosi who even the media doesn't seem to have caught up with her very clear answer on the wall take a listen. >> [ inaudible ]. >> have i not been clear on a wall >> she's been really clear i mean, what has donald trump sort of -- how does he deal with strong women apparently he crumbles in front of them. >> he has had strong women work for him, so that's an interesting fact about him donald trump will find a way to use anyone if it's in the service of his goals. >> right. >> she doesn't work for him. >> she doesn't work for him and she is -- what she has that is so rare is a combination of power and elegance in other words, she can be

circumspect and respectful in exercising that power and that's what he doesn't understand. >> yeah. >> if somebody comes slashing back at him trump can always out slash. if someone is graceful, that's a word that doesn't exist in his vocabulary. >> tony, thank you for coming today and also thank you for bringing a superstar with you. let's take a look at who you brought. >> that's my little grandson jonna. >> hey. >> he's here to support me. >> he is doing an excellent job. i think he is a star i proclaim jonah a star. hi, jonah. do you want to talk to the people he's like, no, i don't, but you're adorable. more "am joy" after the break. d. but when it comes to colon cancer screening... i'm not doin' that. i eat plenty of kale. ahem, as i was saying... ...with cologuard, you don't need an excuse... all that prep? no thanks. that drink tastes horrible!

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. >> i had to use the services here because i got to the point that i was only eating once a day to stretch out what i had, and there's some good people here and they helped me. >> once i get behind that room door, i'm crying my eyes out and i'm like i promised them that we would never be homeless again, we would not want for nothing and we would not need for nothing. >> what could happen to your family if the shutdown continues? >> [ inaudible ]. >> welcome back to "am joy."

35 days, that's how long the longest government shutdown in u.s. history lasted before the president, who said he would be proud to shut the government down, finally gave in and allowed it to end. supposedly temporarily but those 35 days have come at a huge cost for the hundreds of thousands of federal workers impacted, not to mention the millions of federal contractors who will never be made whole for 35 days, government workers like the ones you just heard, didn't know when they would get their next paycheck putting their homes and their credit in jeopardy 35 days were hard-working americans with good, honorable jobs, were forced to line up at food banks just to put food on the table. 35 days in which important government functions like food safety inspections were at risk. the government shutdown even temporarily shut down operations at a major new york airport on friday and caused long lines and

long delays at airports across the country as unpaid air traffic controllers stopped showing up for work maybe because they could no longer to put gas in their cars. fbi agents warned about the impact the shutdown would have on efforts to stop terrorism and members of the coast guard were forced to rely on charity. it's worth noting that the fbi agents who arrested roger stone before dawn yesterday were also unpaid federal workers for 35 days donald trump put the country's safety and economy and his own citizens' income security at risk, and for what for a vanity project that now indicted roger stone made up during the campaign, that donald trump's speech writers had him promise mexico would pay for donald trump shut the government down for 35 days and the one thing he said that is true, is that he owns it.

>> i am proud to shut down the government for border security i will take the mantle and shut it down. i'm not going to blame you for it. >> joining me is maria inhossa, and tara dadowel, business and political consultant, barbara rest, former vice president at the trump organization, author of alone on the 68th floor and david johnson, founder of d.c. report.org and author of it's even worse than you think. certainly the shutdown was even worse than anybody thought it would be i want to come to you on this first. a couple of you at this table know donald trump personally the pain that donald trump caused, we were talking to tony schwartz and he talked about the tactic that sometimes donald trump would use to empty a building, allowing misery to take hold in the building and making the building unlivable so the tenants would essentially take themselves out of the building. >> yes. >> evict themselves. does it surprise you that donald trump would use that same kind

of a tactic on the whole country just to get a wall that he must know he cannot get >> i don't think his perception was he was using it on the country as much as he thought he was using it on the democrats in the house of representatives yes, he will do anything to win. there's no question about that he lost. which is kind of -- >> does he know when he's lost is he aware? >> i think he must know he lost this he may never admit it. maybe he struggles admitting it to himself i think he is aware. >> the number of paychecks most affected have missed was two, 25,419 civilian xwleerps filing initial unemployment claims during a one-week period, $8.7 billion the amount that could be taken out of the economy if that shutdown had gone to the end of the month and 53% which is the personal of people who blamed donald trump for the shutdown.

tara, i'm going to ask you the same question, having known donald trump, does any of that impact him at all? was this just i'm going to win this particular issue and it doesn't matter who is hurting? >> it doesn't matter to him who's hurting. we know he ripped off small business owners, ripped off contractors, continues to do so at the d.c. property as well by the way and who knows what other properties i don't think any of that mattered to him. who did it matter to it mattered to some of those senators in swing states who are up for re-election in 2020 that's who it mattered to and you had six defect and others of them putting pressure on him as well you had republican donors putting pressure on mitch mcconnell and donald trump as well remember, in the 2013 shutdown it was republican donors that got mad at their own party and put pressure during that time, pre-trump. i think that's -- >> that was the shutdown -- was that the shutdown that ted cruz initiated. >> yes, correct. that debacle. >> one of the things that did

come out of this is that donald trump's own team and own family revealed themselves. these are things that people weren't surprised by probably, their attitudes, but i want to play a little bit of the way they spoke about the federal workers who were going through hell during the shutdown take a listen. >> mr. secretary, there were reports that there are some federal workers who are going to homeless shelters to get food. >> well, i know they are, and i don't really quite understand why. >> in terms of the workers who are coming to work and not getting paid what would you say to them? >> listen, it's not fair to you and we all get that, but this is so much bigger than any one person it is a little bit of pain, but it's going to be for the future of our country >> huge share of government workers were going to take vacation days between christmas and new year's and we have a shutdown and they can't go to work and then they have the vacation, but they don't have to use their vacation days and then

they come back and then they get their back pay and they're in some sense better off. >> as soon as this thing goes, the switch will be turned off and payments made and we will go back to normal this is just a glitch. >> a glitch. volunteers, lara trump saying it's a little bit of pain. spoken like people who ever missed a meal, never ever struggled. extraordinary that they would say those things out loud. >> i want to take a moment and actually tell you what i said to my students at depaul university in chicago who are all -- they were not -- their family did not work for the federal government, but in the sense of the other side of the story, what is this all about? this is about a wall that is to keep people like me and my students and their families out. it is a wall that is racist. okay that's why there is all of this human suffering. what i say to my students, look, we're living through a really dark period.

you're living through a dark period that will be talked about for centuries. you're surviving it. understand that there's a contx here, right. so they -- the chinese exclusion act, there wasn't a wall but there was a chinese exclusion act. let's not forget how many jewish refugees were refused entry when they were escaping hitler and this country was like we can't have them. this is part of the long continuum and those people not getting paid have this relationship now with something that is tied to racism. >> yeah. >> and for me it's like the long-term impact on my students is they're mental, how do you feel about the fact that you wake up every day knowing this is happening because they're trying to keep you out the other side of it, joy, the good news right, is that my students are all highly politicized. >> yeah. >> much more politicized than they would have been two years ago. i foe it it's like well thank you >> on that very point, david, you know, a lot of the kind of

conceit has been that this is stephen miller acting through donald trump he is so determined and stephen miller is one of the many aides that donald trump brought in who has this uf mystic alt-right perceptive where nonwhite immigrants need to be locked out or deported or their naturalized citizenship taken away, there's too many relative to the population, but donald trump seems to be the most enthusiastic of all the policies fed to him by roger stone and others, this is the one that he seems to be the most married to. are we putting too much on a strategy that came from stone or that's coming through stephen miller and missing this is what donald trump is passionate about? >> well, he's passionate about it because he was able to rally audiences to it and he thought he could do something about it, although he utterly failed at that and should if he wanted a wall built taken care of it during the previous two years.

we have a white house full of stone cold racists led by a man who is utterly heartless and doesn't care about you it's absolutely bizarre that donald trump in his inaugural addressed promised he would focus on the forgotten man just put that up against what's happened in the last 35 days and ask yourself who got forgotten here >> yep. >> so he -- it's the applause he got. he's going to take heat from the right about this and donald will come up some time in the next 90 days, if not less, with a new story to explain away what's happened here. >> he's already done that. he's claiming that he's going to declare a national emergency, previously been declared for wars, terrorist attacks, the cuban missile crisis, he will use that power to try to get his wall made. here he is >> so let me be very clear, we really have no choice but to build a powerful wall or steel

barrier. if we don't get a fair deal from kurng congresses the government will either shut down on february 15th again, or i will use the powers afforded to me under the laws and the constitution of the united states, to address this emergency. >> first of all, nobody believes, even mitch mcconnell, as sort of ob be see kwees you as he is to donald trump will let him shut the government down again. you worked in the building side of the trump organization, does he understand logistically you can't building that sort of thing. you have to know it isn't even possible >> certainly everything is possible, but the question is why is he asking for $5.7 billion when this is going to cost $50 billion see that's what bothers me and why would anyone ever

allocate money for a project that you don't know what it is there's no designs there's no idea of what's been -- >> there's a rio grande river you cannot pill build a wall across there is topology that makes this absurd. >> some things will make it difficult. but it's not that the idea that it's absurd in that it can't be built. you know, certainly you can't build it down to the core of the earth so people can't get underneath it either what's absurd about it is that we don't know even what we want to build and how much it's going to cost. >> the idea that this is a national emergency, that's i think the thing that's so offensive, the idea that anyone from latin and central america would want to come here and flee here for asylum is offensive to not just donald trump but to his supporters >> right again, the wall is -- because we know it's been said on this

network, on other networks, it needs to be repeated, there is not a crisis of people coming across on this border. that's not the -- the crisis is that people are seeking refuge, but undocumented immigrants and seeking and looking for work, the mexican economy, i was just there, rocking my mexican earrings. >> they are cute. >> mexico and our economy in mexico, booming. right. people are not actually leaving mexico coming to look for work here central americans are seeking refuge and desperate and what this wall is about not just the wall but saying okay, limit all of the refugees that can come into the united states impact it forever. you used that word cleansing, it's a difficult word to hear but the fact is that that's the way people feel. to be honest, i was reporting the story of the building of the wall in 2007, joy, george w. bush wanted to build a wall segments of it were uilt,

boeing corporation got $28 billion to build a cyber wall, a wall, with $28 billion where did they go to. >> steve king built [ inaudible ] just in closing the nancy pelosi factor, she completely schooled him here how do you think that makes someone like donald trump feel >> very, very, very small. first of all, the only thing that donald trump got was nancy pelosi's spine that's what's made this deal trump clearly miscalculated. i said on this show, trump surrounds himself with yes people and a lot of those are amateurs, mercenaries and criminals and when you have those people advising you, they don't understand how congress works. they don't understand how nancy pelosi works they miscalculated they allowed him to believe that she was going to fold. nancy pelosi was never going to

fold trump learned that firsthand he's been defeated nancy pelosi has emerged from this stronger. and i think that right now he's going to be looking for ways to lash out and looking for things to do, but i think he realizes that he ran up against as we say the wrong one. >> david kay, that sounds like your book. >> well -- >> the people he's dealt with and dealing with now >> donald surrounds himself with people who will tell him what he wants to hear, not what he needs to hear. it has to be simple because he's not that smart ta he's a terrible negotiator i've had to negotiate with him many times over the past 1-231 years. nancy pelosi knows how to keep her troops in line and hold firm she isn't concerned by the immediate response of fox news as donald is which led us into this whole thing. >> somebody told me this morning, that those gadflies on the right who really told him

what to do, told him to shut the government down, this is their peak of power. if they cannot punish him or make him pay for not getting them a wall where does their power go maria, tara, barbara, david, thank you all very much. coming up, that security clearance that jared kushner waited over a year to get, it may not shock you to hear this, but it turns out top-level security officials neverwanted him to have it at all. hi there, this is a commercial about insurance.

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my name is jared kushner, i am senior adviser to president donald j. trump. let me be very clear, i did not collude with russia nor do i know of anyone else in the campaign who did so. i had no improper contacts. >> donald trump's son-in-law had so many foreign entanglements that two career security specialists at the white house recommended that he not receive a top security clearance citing concerns about potential foreign influence on kushner that's according to two sources familiar with the matter ultimately the specialist's concerns were overruled by a trump appointee who overruled concerns about at least 30, 30, 3-0, other trump officials, an unprecedented number joining me is maya, barbara, and malcolm nance, author of the

plot to destroy america. maya, ever heard of anything like this, four levels of security clearance, the cia has to grant you the top one and they refused to give that to jared kushner but this person who was situated in a person to essentially bring in people, carl klein, just overruled and overruled, and got him a clearance. ever heard of anything like this >> i never heard of anything like this. you know, as counsel to the mooar of new york city the mooar has to request a security clearance to have certain conversations with washington. you know the idea folks are responsible for the national security, the expert pz, would be so ignored in a context with jared kushner who remember has no experience in foreign affairs. >> right. >> what he does have is a significant number of business ties which is where you have foreign governments like china, like mexico, like united arab

emirates trying to fig out how to use and manipulate the financial interests for their own. even if jared kushner has all the best intentions you would not expect to see that but 30 people means you're really ignoring fundly your experiments in terms of how we protect the country and these are nonpolitical experts >> this gentleman was political, carl klein let me play for you, malcolm, bradley moss rachel did an excellent opening block about this very alarming fact about what jared kushner was able to get and here he is, he's a national security attorney, who specializes in litigation related to national security and federal employment and security law and he is talking about how unprecedented this was >> i'll say this, in 12 years of representing people across the intelligence community, defense contractors, government personnel, military personnel, i've never seen this this what

is we always feared. this is what we were worried was going to happen when the president broke with the custom of not bringing his kids in and family they brought jared kushner in, ivanka trump in, there were obvious, clearly identifiable foreign influence concerns, foreign personal financial too is, extensive foreign contracts and travel, that the two adjudicators said no, makes complete sense to me. >> malcolm, as we put up a couple headlines that happened while donald trump was president about jared kushner discussed secret channel to talk to the russians, jared kushner is china's trump card, oversees contacts raised concerns as officials seek leverage. the wooing, how the saudis have a friend in the white house. as a national security professional yourself tease out what bradley moss was saying what is the fear in the intelligence community of somebody getting a security clearance that they really ought not have >> i'll tell you, i held a top secret sci security clearance

with special access programs jared kushner would have many, many higher levels access of that if he is working in the office of the president. the security concern is quite simple and i have never heard of a person ever editing their actual sf-86 security application form like jared kushner did with i believe over 100 modifications to it that's because anybody who modified their clearance of application once had their clearance pulled and never given access also jared kushner, one of the concerns that fbi had, was at the point where they were going to adjudicate his process, they had come up with the term unclearable. i had never heard of this term unclearable. that means that there is something in your background whether it's -- usually financial in your contacts with foreign powers that means you are a national security potential national security

threat to the united states. this is why the cia with would not allow jared kushner access to their programs because that means that he would either -- they suspected he would either give away top secret information, sell top secret information, or would compromise their intelligence operations. clearly whoever the individual was that made these determinations not just for kushner, but for 30 other individuals was hyper partisan and to be quite honest, every one of those people need to have their clearance pulled immediately to make sure that none of them are spies or selling this information >> that is terrifying. barbara mcquaid, if you're robert mueller, are you thinking about calling in carl klein and asking him about this, given that what's being investigated according to the "new york times" is whether the president of the united states might be an agent of a foreign power >> i think so. not just merely to look at whether, you know, jared kushner made false statements on his

clearance forms, background forms, or are at risk of security concern, but whether this is part of the same conspiracy we want people to have access to this information so it could be shared with russia as all part of this conspiracy that in exchange for assisting the president and becoming elected there were certain quid pro quos they would get in exchange, one of which may have been the sharing of classified information i think it absolutely fits within the scope of that investigation and so why -- you know, carl klein, it's a legitimate question to ask him why did you overrule the opinions of career intelligence professionals 30 times in this administration i think that's a fair question. >> oh, my goodness in the words of adam, scaring is caring but you're terrifying me right now. malcolm nance, sharing or selling information is a worse case scenario. we know jared sought a back channel with russia, headlines

how he would whatsapp with mbs with the saudi crown prince. this is quite alarming. >> it is you know there's an additional point that i'm going to terrify you with right now, the counterintelligence professionals who are making these determinations that people shouldn't have it are now going to or have probably thought about this individual, mr. klein, to determine was he allowing a network to set up within the white house was he himself either influenced by a hostile foreign power or by political preference within the white house and allowing these unclearable individuals to come in there to set up like i said a network where they could be compromising the national security of the united states. if i was in counterintelligence at the fbi and definitely at the cia, i would be pulling my hair out right now because we all know jared kushner as you mentioned in the previous segment, asked a foreign power to use foreign crypto graphic communication systems so he could speak behind the back of

the united states government you know what, the house needs to rip this thing apart because i think that what we're going to find is, individuals for their own personal benefit may have been using this information that they were given access to that they should never have ever seen. >> before we go, i want to mention we at nbc did try to reach out to carl klein and unable to get comment. this is scary. thank you malcolm, maya and barbara. you will be sticking around. donald trump and his long time consig larry are engaging in something that could land them in more trouble and we'll talk about that next. now that i've got you here for a minute, or two actually, i've got to tell you something. with the capital one venture card you earn unlimited double miles on every purchase, every day. my credit card only earns double miles on airline purchases! well, you earn double miles on this and on everything

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michael cohen postponed his congressional testimony because he fears for the safety of his family after the president of the united states went after cohen's father-in-law. more on that next. billions of mouths.

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problems to more mueller more problems it's about you're attacking his father-in-law, mr. trump mr. giuliani, you attack his father-in-law and allude to him being a criminal because he's from the ukraine this is a mob technique to send a message to the individual that mr. trump has called a rat for telling the truth. >> after endless tweets and verbal attacks from donald trump and his tv lawyer giuliani, michael cohen sought to postpone his testimony to take place early next month citing ongoing threats against his family looks like cohen may not have a choice since the senate intelligence committee subpoenaed him to testify and his lawyer lanny davis says cohen will comply. joining me legal analyst maya wiley, former u.s. attorney barbara mcquade, msnbc legal analyst paul butler and former

special agent douglas cologne. you specialized in labor racketeering when you hear stuff like what i'm going to play right now, tell me if it sounds familiar to the cases you dealt with take a listen. >> he should give information maybe on his father-in-law because that's the one that people want to look at because where does that money -- that's the money in the family. i guess he didn't want to talk about his father-in-law. he's trying to get his sentenced reduce. >> his father-in-law is ukrainian. >> that's not a crime. >> has millions and millions -- it's not he comes from the ukraine. he may have ties to something called organized crime. >> what do you make of these guys >> you have implied threats and you have direct threats. in this case you have the implied threat where, you know, the old put your hand on the shoulder and say hey, don't worry about this, that and the other. you know what, how is your

granddaughter doing? does she still take piano lessons on 23rd street and park avenue she has a whole life ahead of her. that's the implied threat to the family if you go back to stormy daniels, when trump moichael cohen ask his fixer his job was to make sure he got someone to take care of the problems that trump encountered. go back to the time she was in a parking lot and someone accosted her f that was from michael cohen, he would be the person who actually sent someone to intimidate her now that cohen is now outside of the loop, he's alone in the cocoon of the trump circle, now he knows how people move so he now thinks it may be someone coming after his family. that same threat goes towards your father-in-law who then goes down to your wife, which goes down to your children. i think it's the same line of threats. >> and to your very point here

is lanny davis, cohen's lawyer, talking about just that. >> the family of michael cohen has been called out by donald trump once again he ducks or lies about what he knows he's done, which is to attack a father-in-law and a wife as a way of getting to mr. cohen and that is called witness tampering, obstruction of justice. >> paul butler, it is ironic, as douglas pointed out, cohen used to be the guy who delivered the implied threats. now he is on the receiving end does that in a sense make him a better arbiter of what it is what he's up against when it comes to donald trump? >> it does and this case it worked because after these threats from trump and giuliani, then cohen says he's not going to testify. ultimately it's not his choice he could be required to give testimony to congress. but the other irony is with rudy giuliani who made his name as a

prosecutor going after mob families and now he's acting like the same kind of thugs who he sent to prison. you know, joy, if [ inaudible ] said to a witness, man, i see your father-in-law, that around the way dude would be in handcuffs. it shouldn't be any different when the president of the united states does it ff in fact it should be worse because this is the most powerful man in the world and he has the ability, the justice department reports to him, so he has the ability to carry out these threats even if he can't be indicted, at minimum it's abuse for office which is grounds for impeachment. >> i want to go back to the point paul made about rudy giuliani originally it was a u.s. attorney the job you used to do as well when you hear him engaging in these tactics a lot of people has expressed shock about what has happened to him but what do

you make when you hear an attorney, lawyer, former prosecutor, engaging in this threatening behavior too >> it's an absolute disgrace and also i agree that it does amount to witness tampering i think that some people are maybe faked out by the fact that this is so open and notorious. ordinarily when you have these kinds of threats and intimidating lines they come privately or behind closed doors so they can't be detected. here because they're on twitter i think it gives sort of the geist that they can't possibly be criminal because who would commit a crime in brought day lye president we prosecuted street gangs on threats they made on social media about people who were rats and weak links to intimidate them all the statute requires is to knowingly intimidate to influence or prevent someone's testimony. the fact that rudy giuliani and president trump are saying this out publicly does not in any way minimize the criminality of it. >> and they're doing it in such

plain sight. here are democrats talking about this intimidation an what effect it will have on their determination to hear from him before congress. take a listen. efforts to intimidate witnesses scare family members or prevent them from testifying before congress are textbook mob tactics and we condemn them in the strongest terms. this is a letter written by some democrats. when our committees begin discussions with mr. cohen's attorney not appearing before congress was never an option this isn't going to stop michael cohen from having to be heard. >> it's not going to stop michael cohen from -- because he's going to be subpoenaed. he's not going to have a lot of defenses to that subpoena. congress has strong subpoena power. the thing here to remember is, michael cohen, we knew that he had some concerns about people he wanted to protect because it was very odd that he didn't enter into a cooperation

agreement with the u.s. attorney's office for the southern district and yet, was giving them information and it was quite clear that he was protecting someone which was also very public and you have to assume that donald trump understood what he was trying to protect and recognized that he could utilize that i mean that's at least one interpretation when you add to that, though, that robert mueller is probably not very excited about michael cohen testifying because he's got ongoing investigations and he doesn't want, obviously, anything that might interfere with that so, you know, i'm sure that the democrats are obviously having those conversations about how to protect the investigation. but very clear that there's intimidation here, very clear i absolutely agree with paul that this is an abuse of power and just remember william barr, so the nominee that donald trump picked to head the attorney

general's -- the u.s. -- -- >> to be attorney general, highest lawyer in the land, took the position that the president can be the prosecutor in chief which they would use then as a defense saying we didn't intend that we're just directing prosecutions >> douglas, one of the things that the speaker pelosi in her lengthy statement about the indictment of roger stone, it was about the kind of people that donald trump surrounds himself with, and you know, you've already seen roger stone threatening to, you know, harm someone's dog, calling them a rat, donald trump using language you're a rat of anybody who testifies, paul manafort and questions of whether he was afraid to talk about what he knows because of all the nefarious characters he's represented there is a theme that feels almost like we're talking about to be blunt a mob prosecution. is that over the top to say that that's what this is starting to feel like? >> you think about it, you have the five families in new york

and donald trump was a developer in new york so he had to be familiar with what goes on in terms of the corruption with the labor unions and, you know, this 5% mob tax that goes on, everything that's built in new york, so he's been familiar with that kind of behavior. if you watch the hand movements that kind of hand stuff that goes on back and forth, that's sort of reminds me of watching some of the guys we used to deal with looking at what's going on now you start to wonder saying, is he taking the same behavior and bringing it over into the oval office because i think what sam nunberg said yesterday that roger stone, you're not donald trump, you can't intimidate people like donald trump, you're not the president, so those birds of a the feather who flock together you see the same pattern going on. >> the idea there was a time in new york city when there was this sort of emblematic idea of corruption of municipal corruption, donald trump's

father operated in that world and got a lot done, probably didn't pay a lot of taxes he was supposed to pay, come up in a context of city government he thinks he can ma nip nate. this is not what washington is right now. >> not even what new york is right now. >> or new york or any place. >> things have changed substantially for the better, not to say there isn't continuing corruption, but no question this was a deeply corrupt city and yes in real estate quite frankly not all real estate developers are criminal, this isn't what i'm saying, but the depth of corruption in real estate transactions significant, lots of money, very new york, very, very tough >> yeah. i think it's not coincidental we have not had a person of donald trump's particular background in terms of what he did for a living go to the white house because it's exposing, sort of a glass prison everything about you comes out maya, barbara, paul, douglas, thank you all very much. up next, if nancy pelosi showed us one thing this week, it's

that a woman could be the most formidable adversary for donald trump. in the latest woman to enter the 2020 race may be taking notice that's next. oo, saying [indistinct conversation] [friend] i've never seen that before. ♪ ♪ i have... ♪

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my mother taught us long ago she would say to me, cam ma la, you may be the first to do many things, but make sure you're not the last when we look at where we are at this moment in the history of our country, i think our founders gave us the right charge they said stand together take care of each other. and serve your country as leaders. and that's what we do today. >> california senator cam ma la harris is already on the campaign trail in south carolina after confirming what a lot of folks already expected this week, she's running for president in 2020 and joins a growing list of democratic candidates vowing to take on trump with dozens more potentially poised to jump into the race joining me is donna brazile, author of "colored girls who have considered politics." i've got the book right here you have done a lot of jobs,

managing the al gore campaign, running the dnc. you are the expert i want to talk to about this race. i want to talk about the idea of a woman running. here are the four already out there. cam ma la harris, kristin gillibrand, tulsi gabbard. what do you say that the country's not ready for a president. >> the country has been ready for a woman president for a long time another woman, mary anne williamson is an author and she's someone very inspirational, she is also out there in the hawkeye state running where it's potential amy klobuchar will get in the race over the next two weeks, another woman that has a very strong background and i do believe that perhaps more women my jump into the race look, this is a very historic year for the democratic party. we will have a report number of candidates we know that they're out and about, traveling throughout this

country, but is america ready? absolutely will it happen in our lifetime, joy? absolutely col it happen in 2020? yes. >> okay, what would women candidates have do differently because we know women are judged differently. there are a lot of guys that will be in it, joe biden, bernie sanders, an indianapolis -- a mayor in indiana named pe beto potential what would a woman have do >> know the rules, understand that in order to win the nomination you have to go out and build a coalition. i think several of the women, liz warren, kamala and others are capable of building the kind of coalition you need, in the hawkeye state, the grinder state, palmetto state but you've got to build a strong coalition that can accrue delegates, get

on a ballot. one key this year because superdelegates will not be as prominent although we retain our voices in terms of the first ballot, it's important to get small doper individual volunteers to get behind your candidacy. they have records of accomplishment and just take a page from hillary clinton who received 66 million votes in the general election, over 4 million votes more votes than bernie sanders in the 2016 primary. hillary had a very diverse operation. she was able to get delegates not just in the early states but she understood that you had to build a coalition in the south and you had to build a coalition in the midwest take a page from hillary clinton and i think you'll have a recipe for is success in 20. >> you're a campaign pro because you know the nicknames of all the states that's how you know somebody's been in the game. >> i've worked on so many presidential campaigns, i delight in the fact i get calls from my kids now i have 300 kids, different

daddies, of course i get calls and i'm thinking about gillibrand, klobuchar and terry mcauliffe, last night, cory booker, joe biden jesse jackson, walter mondale, michael dukakis, bill clinton, al gore, i got them all. >> i'm are upping out of time. you were running the dnc when the hack took place. you had a lot of scared people didn't know who stole it, what was going on what do you make of the indictment we've seen of roger stone? >> first of all, our country was under attack income 2016 it was an attack on our democracy and yes, they used the democratic party to throw the first -- it was a cyber attack but it had a very strong impact on not just the 2016 election but it's still impacting our country now. i would hope these individuals it will tell the truth, will

face the jury and help us as americans get our country back on track this was an attack on our democracy. and they should go to jail >> the donna brazile. >> i believe in due process, but let me tell you, this was an attack on our democracy. >> i know you know a lot of people personally impacted this is the book "for colored girls," a storied history in american politics. have a great weekend coming up at the top of the hour, a behind the scenes look at mar-a-lago and its role in the trump presidency but first, more after the break. aaaah! (mom) nooooo... (dad) nooooo... (son) nooooo... (avo) quick, the quicker picker upper! bounty picks up messes quicker and is 2x more absorbent than the leading ordinary brand. [son loudly clears throat] [mom sighs] [mom and dad laugh] (avo) bounty, the quicker picker upper.

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that's our show for today. am joy will be back tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. up next, frances rivera has the latest. >> thank you so much good day from msnbc world headquarters in new york, 9:00 out west welcome to "weekends with alex witt." three big headlines this hour, a temporary solution to the shutdown but a bigger battle looms. new reaction moments ago from roger stone about his indictment plus, michael cohen and threats he says made him postpone his house testimony. the secrets of mar-a-lago and how president trump bought it for less than $3,000. how did that happen? the author of a new book about the president's gilded palace explains in minutes. but first, new this hour, long time trump friend roger stone emerging fro